OK Iam going to buy a new car for the 2006 season, Heres what I like, V8 rear wheel drive and it must have 4 seats, so my thinking is a 05 GT Mustang, 04 GTO or a 2002 Convertible Camaro SS, now you all know how I like sliding. Whats the best car for me? And yes the 2000 SS Camaro is for sale!

Porsche 968 (good SCCA BS car), E39 BMW M5 (possible good F-Stock, or ESP). New BMW M5 (screw the V-8 real men drive formula one derived motors, that make more HP then the New Z06). E55 AMG (wanna run low 12's with 4 people in the car). Audi RS6 ( Ditto, but AWD).

If you like Sliding Get the old M5, You can pick em up for mid to high 20's these days (if you find the right deal). But that car is a Drift Machine!!!!

05 Rustang doesn't have a class it can win in (and it's ford not exactly famous for good handling), 04 GTO Heavy Heavy Heavy and a tiny trunk and that huge motor and it only runs low 14's, Camaro SS.... uh it's a camaro Ask Bob what he called his camaro I believe the most common name was "the pig".

Isn't the E39 M5 classed in AS (SCCA)? I think it would be eaten up by the S2000s, EVOs and STIs. Where is that list of Martin classes??

Since you're looking at 05's, you might check out the 2005 GTO. LS2 version puts out 400 HP / 400 lb/ft of torque. Based on time slips I've seen, this is a low 13 second car. I'd love to see how one would do in FS at an auto-x against the Camaros and Mustangs. Appears to be sprung a little soft. Picked as 2nd best car for drifting by Speed (R&T) magazine so you know it's got the oversteer you're looking for. Who needs a trunk?? Red tag pricing plus rebates and you can pick up a new one in the $28-29M range. Used ones already dropping.

My suggestion? Pick up a '97 to '00 BMW 540 for $15M to $20M and come race with me!

Nope, believe they got reclassed for 06 in F-Stock. Personally I think the CTSV is gonna be the FS car to have.

Ian, you must not know Mark very well. His old screenname was Musclecarsunlimited....he's the only British muscle car fanatic I've ever met....he likes Detroit iron....he could care less about having a competitive autocross car....all he wants to do is power slide and destroy tires...and he could care less what class any car runs in either at MSCC or SCCA (I don't think he runs SCCA anyway).

Mark, as much as you like to slide, I think even you would hate the GTO. The pigs work overtime in that push factory. The new Mustang actually handles fairly well for what it is. The steering has a better, more direct feel than ever before. Same for the shifter. My only qualm is the SRS, but that might be good for YOU!

Hey Matt. Have you driven a new GTO? I haven't but I was watching a short video of one on an auto-x course and it looked like the rear was trying to pass the front most of the time. Didn't look like push to me!

I'll have to find the link. Capt. Oversteer would love it. Lots of tire smoke!

I autocrossed one at Deland. It's heavy and pushes like mad. Sure you can get the back end out easily, it's RWD and has lots of power! If you're rough and abrupt with the controls (a la Mark), you can slide it.

Thank you Matt for clearing that one up, as long as I can turn the traction control off Iam happy, The SS Camaro I have at moment is very hard to get it to push, so I would be upset if I do not get something thats as easy to slide! I have been looking a Roush Mustang Stage 1, but I think its just a dressed up GT?

Ian, the LS7 Z06 makes slightly more power than the V10 on the M5. Not the other way around .

Mark, alot of good suggestions here. The GTO and the Camaro would be my choice. I'd probably stick with the Camaro you've got though instead of buying a convertible.

On the other hand, you might want to look into the Chrysler's new RWD platform out. I'm not a big Chrysler guy, but they have a couple of decent-powered RWD V8 cars that fit 4. I believe the new 300C, the Magnum, and the Charger all have the 350hp HEMI as an option. I don't know much about their performance or oversteering capabilities, but they've got about 350hp which is more than plenty to break the rear end loose. It also fits all the requirements you've asked for.

Personally, I'd look into an 05/06 GTO.

Bzzzzt, wrong!

M5 = 507hp
Z06 = 505hp

The Z06 does have almost 100 ft-lb of torque over the M5 and its also about 800lbs lighter

It is ABSOLUTELY not for sale Mark. However, you know that's what I would recomend. I'm a tad biased too. It's by far the most fun I've ever had in a car. And that's EVERY day too. Your daughter would sure be happy too. Good luck finding an orange one though.

My brother just bought a new GTO. It's a pig. It takes way too much steering input to get it to turn. The suspension is mushy. It STILL looks plain. He's spent a huge chunk already on rear GTO fill-ins, custom grill and other little things to make it stand out a little. At least it finally has hood scoops. It goes like a scalded dog but it's no faster than my SS in a straight line, and he won't even try to keep up with me in a corner. It has major understeer (push) tendancies. If you're gonna spend 30K on a GTO. Buy a vert SS and drop another 4K into some serious power and suspension mods. Then spend the other 6K on a fabulous cruise vacation for the family.

Oh boy, let me tell you about the sliding ability of all of the above!! The SRT-8 300C is one of the most fun cars to drift that I've done it in. Yes, more fun than a Viper! Long wheel base, good steering response, plenty of steering rack, oodles of torque. In the SRT Track Experience program, we'll delaminate a rear tire every day doing hot laps. I haven't worked the program since they brought in the SRT-8 Magnums & Chargers, but I hear they're not as much fun as the 300C, although just as easy to slide. The SRT-6 Crossfire is also a blast to drift. Yes, all these cars have traction control that you can't defeat completely by just pushing the button, and I'm not giving away the secret to 100% disabling.

Thank you for all the great info, Matt you hit the nail on the head with the American muscle thing, when I lived in the UK theres very few American V8 muscle cars, so I owned BMW, Merc and Jags, so now being here its still a novelty to have all that torque, I really like my SS Camaro but thought I would go up a few years but Iam really confused now in what to get, also I do not want a 4 door car either just something thats pretty and slides well ( sorry rallying days).

That's odd seeing as the Holden Monaro's have a great reputation for being a car that's more at home sideways than anything else. I guess they lost something when they "Americanized" the suspension....

Yeah yeah, I just checked the site... I thought I remembered the M5 Making 507hp. BMW says 500 even. Z06 505hp
But the M5 does it with 2 less liters and Doesn't sound like an oversized lawn mower.

British guy, I figured Mark would be trying to import a TVR. You can pick em up sorta cheap! They are real muscle cars!!! None of this take a cheapo frame designed in the stone age and put a huge Motor in it and con people into believing it's a sports car. I'll never get it.

Think how pimp you'd be driving this...


2000 TVR TUSCAN 4.0 Speed Six 2dr Convertible,
25,500 miles, GTS Viper Blue, Full Blue/grey leather, FTVRSH, Engine re build at 18k care of TVR, New clutch, New Alternator, New Lambpa sensors, 12 months MOT, 18" spider alloys, PAS, computer, Remote locking, Alarm, Immobiliser, 6 CD changer, Elec M and W, Lumbar support,Targa Roof, 6 Months Tax. Stunning car sounds terrific and in great condition. Fully reliable used daily, waterproof, garaged, cherished - knee injury forces sale. Ferrari performance at a cut of the cost! Priced to sell need automatic 4 x 4 asap. £17,995. no offers Email:
Telephone: 07801 546797 or 01952 279409

Since when did a hydoformed aluminum chassis w/magneisum roof & engine cradle qualify as cheap or stone age?

As far as TVR's go even the British (i.e. Top Gear) don't like them and that says alot.

Drive one. then drive a porsche/bmw/S2000 and tell me they are in the same decade. Ask Adam B. what he thought of driving his Z06 after some laps in the GT3.

I've been driving Jackies WS6 a bunch and it's kinda nice but It's scary in corners. It doesn't communicate well to the driver at all. Even Strano's car with the rear axle tramp under braking was scary. Whats really odd is they don't feel all that fast either. Jackie rode in my M3 and said "wow I think your car is faster then mine" It feels faster but the 1/4 mile times say different. Over bumps you can feel the car twist it's like driving an M1 miata with the frame rails broken out of the way ( had one, did that). It's a Huge motor put in a soso vehicle. Now that motor is awesome. I think it would be GREAT in an S2K!

And Tif Loved the Tuscan in the review I saw!
Topgear TVR Tuscan

No doubt the GT3 has a fine chassis but at the same time the Z06's don't seem to have any trouble keeping up

As far as BMW's go I do have one sitting in the garage if you remember Granted is no M3 but the basics are the same. The German's are far from perfect though, tearing of the rear subframe mounts & rear shock mounts on the E36's & 46's is FAR too common to chalk up to conincidence. Trash American cars all you like but I've never, ever heard of an F-body or Vette tearing a major suspension mounting point out of the chassis.

The F-body chassis is pretty primitive I'll admit, but then again it WAS designed in the late 70's early 80's (the 4th Gen chassis is just an update of the 3rd Gen). In the right hands (not mine) they can also be pretty quick. Regardless its still better than the 79-04 Mustangs

The wheel hop really only seems to be a problem with the LS1 cars (98-02). My car never does it. Ask Strano about it and he'll probably tell you that you were stabbing the brakes too hard, too fast.

Anyhow this is all academic because I'll never change your mind and you'll never change mine so we'll just have to leave it at that

BTW that Top Gear video must be really old. Tiff hasn't been on that show for at least 4yrs now. At home I have a video of the new Top Gear reviewing the latest TVR (the Sagaris I think). In a nutshell here's what they said:

1. Very Fast
2. Handling was dowright scary
3. Interior looks like it was designed by someone on LSD and it smells like a canoe factory
4. Seriously lacking refinement/ease of use

Oh no was Jermy Clarkson Driving ..... I think car's that turn scare him! You can watch his driving and figure he knows what he's doing but he wasn't born with it like Tif was! I have a hard time with Jermy's opinions.

Oh and Give the GT3 More Autocross suitable Gearing and have the tire companies cater to it like they do the vette and there would be no keeping up!

The GT3 is great - but so is my z06. and remember, my z06 (bought new) was less than half the price of what you could buy a GT3 USED!

adamb

Adam, why didn't you run the Z06 at the Pro Finale?

Because Peter let me drive the GT3!

I have never said that the z06 is a better car... it is just a better VALUE.


adamb

i would hop on that tvr in a heart beat if i had the money

To be honest a Z06 suits me fine, but no back seat its a pity no one does a 2+2 conversion. I have found a 2002 M3 convertible I like, but I still like my American Muscle.

I'm wrong? Sorry, you're wrong!
Z06 - 505hp
BMW M5 - 500hp

BMW's M5 Page

Easy...easy...

Apparently BMW can't decide how much power it makes....

http://car-reviews.automobile.com/news/bmw...507-hp-v10/184/

Crud, karma strikes. No sooner than I'm trash-talking the GTO that I find out I have an audition for something in one.

Excellent! If you talk more trash, you'll have a steady supply of movie gigs....just make sure that next time you disparage a car it is something cool like the ariel atom (Might as well make it a really fun gig.)

Yep, sounds just like a lawnmower...

http://www.horsepowerengineering.com/media/ZO6.wmv

Some of your blather really kills me Ian

BTW, most of the new Zs have been testing to 530-540+ HP @ the crank(452-463 RW w/ a 15% driveline loss). I like underrating

You've got one ordered don't ya George!?!?!?

Lou Gigliotti just got 540rwhp/490rwtq out of a Z06 by throwing on his longtube headers and a test cam. The baseline was in the 440rwhp range

Sound bite

HEY HEY, all i'm saying is No 90 degree crank V-8 will ever sound as good as a Flat Plane Crank V-8. All the 90 degree's sound like Briggs and straton Lawnmowers reguardless of who makes em. Ford, Chevy, BMW , Mercedes (the worst sounding V-8), The new RS4 Audi Actually sounds ok, probably because it spins to 8K and the web guys probably edited the sound.
Want a Good sounding V-8... Formula one, German Touring car, and Ferrari. Thats about it. I think of the sound difference like a Briggs Kart, and a Shifter Kart!

Also we all know BMW underrates their Cars. I wouldn't be surprised if the M5 was mucho higher. Hell it's only .5 slower down the drag strip then the Z06 and it seats 3 more people and weights 1000lbs more with smaller tires!!! Me math thinky it either has Alot more power, or Better power band, or better gearing!

And yes after watching the video sounds just like all 90 degree V-8's. Couple of Briggs karts on steroids. Not that nice Clean Smooth Sound you get from an F-1 car or a flat plane crank.
Ian

You contradicted yourself. With the exception of the short lived Ford Taurus SHO 3.4-litre V8 that was 60-degrees, I believe ALL V8 engines are 90-degrees. So that would mean all V8s sound terrible.

I believe the difference you are referring to is cross-plane V8s versus flat-plane V8s. They are both 90-degrees.

Flat plane V8s will never be as smooth and quiet as cross-plane V8s, but to makers of exotic sports cars, i.e. Ferrari, less refinement is not a problem since they employ short strokes and light weight reciprocating components and figure noise and lack of smoothness is a desired design characteristic.

By the way, if you think a large displacement american V8 sounds like a Briggs and Stratton, I think you need to start wearing ear plugs in some of those race cars you drive. Your hearing is being damaged.

I worked on a sound clip a couple years ago using a lawn mower doubled, Speeding it up and slowing it down digitally it sounded remarkably like a muscle car revving. The issue I had was that obviously you can't make a lawn mower rev so just speeding up the sound clip raised the pitch. If you imagined the pitch staying low it worked. See if I can dig that up. Just thought it was halarious and another way to tick off the muscle car guys. It's soo easy to make them mad.


Your correct, the flat plane and 90 degree is refering to the Crank throw angle, not the actual cyclinder angle of the V. The plane has several advantages. I called crowler to see about putting together a Crank, rods, pistons, cams for an LS1 in ala flat plane. They said they could easily do it and quite often build them to order. $7000 was the price for all titanium rotating assembly. In their words... It made more power both up top and downlow. It was great for circle track cars that needed a Broad powerband. The issue they had was the blocks were to weak they were putting them in. No matter how light they made the rotating mass the blocks wouldn't hold from the vibration. They needed to be De-stroked.

Interesting concept about swapping the crank. However, the single greatest advantage of the flat plane V8 is its lower overall height, allowed since it doesn't have to provide room in the crankcase for large counterweights. Along with the lower height comes a correspondingly lower center of gravity. Also, as you pointed out, flat plane V8s are generally very short stroke which allows higher RPM operation which is where the power comes from.

Even with the swap, it would seem that the cross plane V8 block would still have the originally cast large crank area, taller height and higher CG. The power difference mentioned by the engine builder would seem to be valvetrain related, not reciprocating assembly related.

Am I missing something?

It's just what the guys at Crower mentioned to me. Apparently some Short Circle track guys like em. I don't know the math behind it but there is an effecency advantage as well I believe. I wonder if it's illegal to use it in Top Fuel!!! now that would be cool. Only needs to hold together for 3 seconds.

Even though I love the sound of American V8's the best sounding engine is a boxter type either Porsche or Ferrari will do Iam not Fussy!

Pretty hard to beat a 1000cc sport bike for sound! We have a place next door that builds Nascar engines. I hear them on the dyno all day long, They start to sound ok at really high RPM... usually right before you hear something Break.

Ian, F1 cars currently use V10 engines.

Im not gonna nerd it up with the math , but to explain it some perhaps...

The efficiency advantage of the flat-plane crank is the fact that there is less rotational inertia - allowing for better response, higher revs, and top end power.

With the cross-plane crank the shape "+" inherently has more mass due to, well, the cross plane "--", whereas the flat-plane "|" has only 2 'poles'.

This is actually the single greatest advantage of the flat-plane crank as well.

Shit I need to go now and lay down!

I can now officially confirm what a pig the GTO is. It does fine drifting because it has plenty of power. Other than that, what a beast! Reverse 180s and 360s are damn near impossible because it's so nose heavy.

Manardi used to use a V-8 a number of years ago, And it sounded pretty good.... that was what I was refering to. However I could be wrong, I remember being at the USGP and hearing all the cars go by and the manardi had a different pitch to it. I asked around and some people said that it was because it had a V-8 instead of a V-10. So i'm going off hearsay, no actual research.

The firing order will affect the sound markedly

Don't I know it.

If I fire one off in the direction of my wife while I am standing upright ---what I hear is

"You disgusting pig, why the hell did I marry you ?"

AND FOR CONTRAST---

When I am on the bowl and fire one off, what I hear is the initial fart blast, followed by the hint of a echo----
with the sound of my gas explosion bouncing off the walls of the commode----

And if I fire one off and there is something else involved over and above just gas---then what I hear then is the sound of my handiwork splashing into the bowl----and the sound waves from this tend to interfere with the pure sound of the gas explosion.

THE STUDY OF FIRING ORDER AND SOUND IS REALLY very complicated

Nope, standard formula regulated by FIA. Everyone runs a V10. Before that it was V12s. They're mandating V8s in a couple years, I think starting with 2007. I hardly keep up with the technical changes in F1 these days, they're too outlandish and ever-changing.

For a while I think they could run a V8, V10, or V12 as long as the displacement was <3.5L. 93 or 94 was the last year for that though so F1 has been running 3.0L V10's for a looooooooong time now.

The switch to V8's takes effect this coming year (2006). Teams also have the option of running V10 with reduced rev limit but AFAIK only STR (formerly Minardi) are doing so. All of the engine manufacturers have developed V8's for their factory teams.

Jason they couldn't have mandated the V-10 that many years ago because I remember watching F1 when they started to switch from the V-12 to the V-10. I was old enough to think why someone would go from a perfectly balanced engine to an engine that requires counter weights (ala 2 5 cyclinders). And it was well after Volvo started making their 5 cyclinder. So it had to be late 90's. Because remember that Renault engine that won Williams all their championships in the 90's. I believe that guy was a 12.