I heard Sunday's course was protested on the grounds that it was too fast?

Anyone who was there care to comment?

Found this on sccaforum"



Couldn't find anything on the scca.org forum.

Alson saw some unofficial results with Ian winning SS, Dismo in CS, Palmblad in CSP...

well in the stock miata I was into 3rd on the back side before the forced slalom. i was riding the revlimiter for awhile on my 2nd run- while working I saw alot of ppl shift into 3rd there as well.

I heard talk of said protest, but I thought it had been settled at the event, with Sunday's results standing. I heard talk of a BSP BMW that ran the course as a result of the protest to document the speeds, and that it's peak speed on the course was 65.

I don't believe I, or any of the other S2K drivers I talked to got much over 62 or so, which is - I believe - where the rev limiter on the 00-03 S2K kicks in. As for corners over 45 MPH, I (surprisingly enough ) didn't bother looking at the speedo during the faster corners. But at 1.2 G's, 45 MPH implies a corner with radius of 120' or more.

There were lots of 75 foot slaloms, which imply connected 75 foot radius curves (34 MPH at 1.2 G). There were some slaloms with 100 foot between cones, but these had offsets of approximately 5 foot, so I'd be surprised if they were much faster than 35-40 MPH or so.

Some of the corners may have been a tad over 45 MPH for a stock class car, but it really depends on where in the corner you measure the speed. Turn in? The exit? Steady state cornering? IMHO, I'd be surprised if any of the corners had a steady state cornering speed of 45 MPH or better in a stock car (excluding Ian ).

In any case, I personally thought the course was safe, and very fun. I don't recall any "close-call" incidents. Incidentally, I think judicious application of the following phrase in the rule book was certainly in the spirit of this weekends courses: Also, note that they are guidelines, not rules.

Watching S2000 in-car videos of other national events - including the championships - would indicate that these courses were well within the "norm" of SCCA events.

I thought the course today was great. I hope the above statement is incorrect. I do not think it would be fair to toss the days results. Isn't there something in the rule book about a protest being done in a timely manner. After the event is over, in my opinion, is too late.

Speaking of protest, I want to protest why sm2 (or any other heat 1 people) get stuck in heat 1 both days! We get the coldest track, the coldest tires, etc....


I had a great experience down there. I just sucked on saturday (that doesn't effect my feelings about tossing out sundays results). I OC the first, and spun on my next two runs, both with 2 cones!!!!! Got my one and only clean run today and it put me back in the money.

If this Protest sticks.... I will be sorely disapointed!

Why? Because then you'd have only beaten the rest of SS by two seconds instead of four?


Obviously I didn't see the course but from what I've been reading it wasn't any faster than other national courses. If that's the case then don't see why this is a problem now.

Given the time/money it takes to run a tour (especally if you have to travel) I imagine there are going to be some VERY upset people of the protest does stand...

Heats remain constant for both days. Changing it would just lead to a LOT of confusion.

And the protest was filed well before the event was over. Infact, the protestor had left before the results of the protest were even decided. Please don't add to the rumor mill that has already started on damn near every autocross board in the country.

Other than the fact that it would soil an otherwise very enjoyable event, I don't think it changes the results a whole lot. Personally, I was the same place on Saturday I was Sunday, as were most of the people I know, so it doesn't change the engraving on our plaques at all. I don't think A-stock trophy winners moved around at all. I don't really know about the rest of the classes.

In any case, the punishment does not fit the crime - if there was a crime. Ultimately, I believe the SSS's are responsible for calling the course too fast, and none of them spoke a word if they thought the course was too fast. I was one of the SSS's, and I certainly didn't see anything alarming to me - either watching, or driving. For the number of cars and runs that occurred, I was actually quite impressed at how far from dangerous anything that happened was. I didn't observe any, even remote, close calls. While I was on watch, I only scolded one driver - for keeping "in it" when he was way off course, while course workers were running in to the general area to set up his downed cones.

I, of course, didn't watch all the runs, but did anyone here honestly believe conditions were unsafe, or see any close-calls?

It's people like Lehman----just doing his usual thing of posting inflamatory comments like always---which just drive me nuts----!!!!!!!!


Hey Jessie ---Do you think the protest and the result is a crock of manure ?

Terry, I don't think the conditions were unsafe and for anyone who has run at GCAC they were the norm. I did hit my 3rd gear rev light once on Sunday's course which would be about 70 or so. But just for one second. Looking at the AS results if only Saturdays results were to stand you, myself and 1st place would remain the same, but 2-4 would all shift.

Im going too change the tone of the thread.

Congrats too all the guys who finished first this weekend from CFR. Jessie, Per , Ian and Bob with some wicked fast runs.

Looks like Terry, Dat , Trey and Kim S. turned in some pretty solid runs too.

My weekend was not what I wanted competition wise, but I learned alot and I was able too close the gap Sunday. I really enjoyed all aspects of the weekend. I just pushed too hard and lost it on my last run and by the time I gathered it up, I just decided too striaght line the gates. ( I was going too have a hard time hitting them without getting crazy before the timing lights anyway ).

And hey, I got too spend time with friends, family, and I got a really cool silver autocrossforum.com sticker for my car....for free!! ( Looks pretty damn good on my car too...this is the only sticker I have ever put on my car)

I actually did not hear of the protest till I got home.
I do remember hearing Darin and Carpenter talking, I specifically heard, "well ya gonna do it, I think you should do it" I figured something in GS was illegal.
Turns out this was what they were talking about. But that was during my course work in the 3rd heat I believe.
Now Carpenter didn't exactly have a great day, I heard him telling people that He coned all day and DNF'd a run. "I never DNF a tour course". Maybe I'm crazy but that might have had something to do with his dicission to protest the course. But that seems unlikely as he's a top notch competetor, and a really great guy. I'd be the kinda person to blame the course!

This guy needs to face the fact that he lost and one cars 45 is anothers 35 and anothers 55. Maybe, he was going too fast in said corner, and this is why he didn't get one clean run on Sunday. Go figure this guy is from Knoxville, a town with more rules and codes than Cape Coral, Florida.

I know that I wasn't going faster than 45 in said corner and I have substancially more hp than a Celica...but I do suck and looking at the Celica's Sunday results, so does he... If he had done better on Sunday, would this protest have been filled? I am guessing NO! You can please some of the people, some of the time but you can't please all the people, all the time.

Thanks to everyone who came down and had a great time at our airfield. We hope you come back next year. We truely enjoyed the SCCA coming down and bringing all the competitors with them.

To be honest I was quite surprised at the course on Sunday. I autocrossed with GCAC several times last year and it was similar to their style/speed type course. After reading people's posts on various boards about SCCA trying to slow down the speeds at national events, Sunday's course was somewhat surprising. Don't get me wrong, I loved driving it, but I can see why he would protest it. I guess if you're trying to send a message to the higher ups, a protest is stronger then a complaint. It would suck however for those who moved up in position after Sunday's course and they only counted Saturday.

Absolutely. If there was a crime, the punishment should not be for the competitors. It should be to fix things for next time. If the protest was for safety, make better/stronger/more testable guidelines. If the protest was for competition, it should only affect the class of the competitor who protested. If the fellow - as is reported - didn't intend for the results to be thrown out, than he should withdraw his protest.

Again, I don't think there were any safety issues with the course. And as for fairness of competition, I don't think the style of course would be a particular disadvantage for the type of car I believe the protester was driving (GS Celica?).

This kind of crap is what made me get out of sailboat racing years ago. It got to the point where the competition was less and less about preparation, training, and sailing your boat well in the given conditions, and more about how well you knew the rules and could exploit them to your advantage. Amateur lawyers shouldn't get in to these kinds of sports, as they ruin it for everyone.

As always, MHO.

Results posted....

RESULTS

Interesting... No G-Stock results for Saturday. Did he protest Sunday and Saturday? What's up?

When I first heard about this earlier today I thought it was a joke. And I still do.

As far as the results.
G-stock results are there (Ian's link) Just not well formatted. No break after F-stock.

TomA

Darrin just posted in SCCA forums that his top speeds for the two days - as measured with a DL1 data logger - were 60 and 62 MPH respectively. That certainly is well within the guidelines of the SCCA. Of course the GT3s and the Z06s, and most of A-stock were probably going faster at times, but probably not significantly so. As for the corners, I'd again be surprised if anybody was getting much above 45 MPH for any sustained period. Maybe the slaloms, but I'm not entirely sure that's what the "turn" guideline is written about. I don't think this is the first time 75 foot slaloms have been used. And for that matter, if the slalom was the problem, we had 75 foot slaloms on Saturday as well.

First off, congratulations to all the winners, trophiers, and participants for a great event! I hear that we're going to get a new class for all the Aliens like Ian!! I can't wait for the classes to be returned to the mortals...

Regarding the course, from the view of an average participant driving a Z06 (thanks Adam!), it was definately fast but given the size of the facility I don't think it was unsafe and I heard nothing but good comments about the course design from the SS crowd, with only one comment about wishing there was a couple of fast sweepers built into the turn-around section.

Neither the Z06s nor the GT3s reported hitting their rev limiters in second, and I certainly never did. Ian's GT3 was definately in "slither" mode and Peter's GT3 is setup to win this year (I drove it in EVO on Friday, thanks Peter, I guess I didn't hurt it enough to slow it down). While working the course on Sunday I could see several A Stock S2000s running on their rev limiters, for at least 1/4 of the time on the return section. I think they were doing it to prove a point. I'm not sure what speed they hit their 2nd gear rev limiters, but the speeds coming back were obviously above that limit.

Thanks to all the forum members who made this Yankee feel welcome, I had a wonderful weekend of speed and look forward to seeing everyone again at a future event! Regardless of the course speed.

Scott

Real quick top 10 pax. I only did class winners.

Ian Stewart SS 78.302
Mark Chiles GS 79.361
Chris Shenefield STS 80.176
Darrin Disimo CS 80.535
Jesse Naughton ES 80.903
Jason Collett AS 81.246
Per Schroeder HS 81.276
Jonathan Roberts ASP 81.406
Brian Flanagan DSP 81.584
Sam Krauss DS 81.781

It was great meeting you Scott. I am not a "rules" reader so I don't even know, but IF the results for sunday are tossed out, is the event even ligit? If I could I would protest the WHOLE event if one day was dropped. Yes, the drop effects me, but it is more the principle of the whole thing. The event is two days, with your best time from both days added together. It is not the competitiors fault if the course is not deemed legal. Why should they be punished?

Back to the courses, I thought Saturday was much more scary than sunday's. At course station 2, we actually had to run for our lives a couple of times (literally) during the 4th heat when the SS were running. I think there were far less spins on sunday than saturday, and overall it flowed much better.

Jesse, I was not trying to spread rumors. I did not hear about any protest about the entire event so I assumed it came afterwards. I did know that the bmw dsp parked next to me was filing a protest about the sound thing. They did not get to run their final runs on day 2 because they were too loud. The EM cars were louder, the karts were louder, in general there were several other cars that were louder so I can see how they had an issue. I think they still took first and second, but that wasn't the point.

My general impressions of the whole thing were how impressed I was about the organization, and execution of everything. Granted, there are no "novices", but there were still "novices" to tour events present (like me). Everything was done in a timely manner. People went to their work assignments, etc without complaint. It was just a good feeling. Now I have to say when we worked Sunday, station 3 looked like they were filed with novices. They missed calls (which we called in for them), and in general seemed pretty incompetant. Station 1 wasn't filling in the paper work correctly. I couldn't believe that it was the SECOND day! They should have had at least one day of experience.

Ohh, and Congrats to everyone, especially Ian. He drove like a god on both days. Very, very impressive!

If you drill down in class the top ten changes. For example:

Matthew Jensen 2nd place GS 80.299
Andy Hollis 2nd place STS 80.806

Even third place GS out paxed winning driver in DSP.
Thomas Austin 3rd place GS 81.524

So, nice list but not close to top ten.
Just like no one is even close to the top pax of Ian Stewart

What heat was station 1 not filling the paperwork in correctly?

Sorry Tom, It just looked like I couldn't slack long enough at work to Do everyone's Pax. I tried to do some that looked close and it was taking a while. So I just did class winners.

Yes, Ian continues to amaze...

Ian, I have never ever ever let anyone drive the .:R32 but you are not just anyone. I would love for you to take her out for a couple of runs at our test and tunes to show me how much I suck.

By the way, all course designs where approved by Howard and he did slow saturdays down a bit. He loved sundays course and ran it several times in his Gran Prix rental car...

I do have one complaint: I got a very bad sun burn and intend to file a protest....

I think that puts me at 9th. Woohoo! Not bad for a 116hp pedal car.

Per

After seeing your list, I just picked two names I thought had to be up there -- and of course calculated mine.

Now, back to working...I mean lurking.

Edit: Frank reported today that he did hit his rev limiter on the return at around 70 mph. FWIW

There is a BSP Sti reporting the limiter in 3rd at 75mph as well.

I think Matt might have beat Ian in pax--if he ran the event---

hell raw time also

Yup, a coupld 2nd place guys end up getting mixed in there. If my last run on Sunday was clean, I'd be at a 79.575. Not bad for the crap tires we were on.

Yo...chill out. You don't know the man, and you clearly don't understand the motivation of a protest like this.

Rob is a great competitor, and he'll be the first to help out at an event if you need it. Sunday's results have nothing to do with the protest. And I'd say he was driving right at the edge of how fast a GS Celica can actually go. Furthermore, you may want to revisit your physics book as far as figuring out cornering speeds between classes. Since the difference from HS to ASP in terms of cornering ability relates to less than a 5mph difference at the 45mph stated limit.

And there is no "said" corner. We're still waiting for the results of the protest to be made public. I'd call a slalom where I can carry close to 60mph a series of turns, but that's me. I dunno...

The protest was a GOOD thing. The result is silly.

For 2000-2003 S2000 (AP1), the rev limiter on stock tires is 63 MPH. For 2004-2006 S2000 (AP2), the rev limiter on stock tires is (I believe) 58 MPH. The Kumho 265/45/16 tires the winner was on, the speed is about 1 MPH faster than stock (64 MPH). On the Hoosier 245/45/16 tires I was on, the speed is about 1 MPH less than stock (62 MPH).

In talking to the other S2K drivers, both AP1 and AP2, the consensus was the speed gains offered by 3rd gear were offset by the time lost to two shifts. All the drivers I talked to were bouncing the rev limiter. I suspect the AP2 drivers were on their rev limiter for longer periods than the AP1 drivers. So I don't think the S2000s were going faster than 62 to 64 MPH, with some (AP2), even slower.

Heat 4 of day 2. Right after the stuff happened with station 3, control came over the radio and told station one that they needed to mark clean for all the runs of people clean, not leave it blank.

Station 3 had some issue also with the recording but can't remember specifically what it was. I think they didn't check dnf, but wrote it down in the gate/cone section or something like that.

Not sure what exactly happened as far as station workers on the second day. We were missing two (well maybe just one since I think Jim Bledsoe from the day before was suppossed to be doing something else). Maybe that is what happened to station 3 and or 1. But I thought you were doing the same things both days( exluding Jim since he was supposed to be doing somthing else and they just told him to stay the first day since he was out there).


I can't help with the speed issue as top of second for me is close to 100.

Here's an open letter from the Chief of Protest: LETTER HERE

We all have our opinions and I am stating mine...and for you to say Sundays results have nothing to do with the protest, is yours. You are not in the head of this guy so you have no clue what his motivations are.

I am not the smartest person in the world but I can read the writing on the wall. If the protest stands he will get a thrid place and 100.00 bucks from Kumho. This is what I see plain as day.

Over reading and interpretation of the rules is what killed NASCAR and turned it into the laughing stock it is now. Look at the cheater who just won the Daytona 500. Our sport is suppose to be fun and exciting, the over interpretation of the rules will kill our sport as well.

I am the smartest person in the world.

Oh, by the way could someone please tell me how to get my head out of my a$$.

thanks

sneeze

I was working Station 1 in heat 2, so I was just checking to make sure my group had not screwed up. We were short people the 2nd day, so the radio/flag worker and clipboard worker were both having to run for cones.

After reading 3 pages of this thread, I'd have to say, all things considered, if Robert Carpenter's protest is selflessly, altruistically motivated (not egotistically as I think personally is true) then can someone offer a plausible explanation why the SCCA posting labelled "Saturday Results" is a PDF file missing ONLY 2 of 220 Sunday results - in particular the Sunday times of Tom Austin and Jeff Jacobs (the two who will stand to "lose" if Robert's protest is upheld). Coincidence? Baloney!!!

Robert took his runs, protested and then left ... I think he got someone else to work his shift as he dang sure wasn't there to do it himself.

My 1.5 cents, no way related to Tom's ...

Diane Austin
(and Tom will hate this post tomorrow, but we drive, think, act and post differently and I still think RC is one of the nicest and fastest people in Solo2)

Robert was Chief of Impound, and worked 7 of 8 heats of the weekend. He left during the 4th heat.

I've known Rob for a number of years now. I know how he operates and what kind of guy he is. You've never met the guy, nor have you read the extent of the going's on of the protest.

Personally, I don't think he really cares about 100 bucks from Kumho. I think he was frustrated with his performance, but I also think that the reasoning behind the protest is exactly what most every National level driver who's been posting on the EVO list and the SCCAForums thread has said...

There HAS been a speed creep in recent years, and SOMETHING had to be done about it. Protests about courses have been filed before, and this is the FIRST time that all times have been thrown out. This result wasn't what anyone had in mind upon the time of the protest being filed. In order to have the SEB actually look at the issue ASAP, a protest is required. It makes the system PROACTIVE now to readdress the issue.

3rd place at a sissy National Tour in BFE Florida is crappy for someone of Rob's driving talent. I'd be upset too with a 3rd place finish if I was Rob. Rob hasn't been out of the top 5 at Nationals in years...except for the CRAZINESS that was C-stock at Nationals this past year.

Also, 100 bucks is not like "winning" money. All the contingency does it to slightly reduce costs. If you look at what a Solo season costs at the National level to be prepped and ready to win, you're looking at THOUSANDS of dollars each year. $100 bucks is less than half the gas that Rob used to drive back and forth to Buckingham this year....let alone, entry fees, tires, hotel, food, etc.

I hearby vote that idiot Lehman be banned !

I think this is even bigger than my PCA fiasco.

Anybody here like my comic relief---all over the web



See Adam Lehman here is attracting web interest and hits------

People ---do you think I have added anything constructive or funny to the debate ?

Hey Tom Austin---

Did you have a brother named Steve who was an Astronaut----
who was barely alive and put back together for about $ 6,000,000 back in 1975 ?

Speed creep huh? Wonder why that is? It surely couldn't be that todays cars are much better handling, coming with LSD from the factory, more horse power and greater tire technology. Darrin logged a top speed of 62 mph and ran 46 second run on sunday, well within SCCA standards. So, what is the SCCA going to do next? I say the whole problem lies in the SCCA allowing unprepared cars to run RACING TIRES. If the SCCA truely wants to keep the speeds down, they should make the unprepared cars run 140 treadwear tires. We would not be having this disscussion, would we? Also, if the problem lies in the unprepared cars, why then are ALL the times going to be thrown out for sunday? Its obvious that prepared cars will go faster than unprepared cars, so their times should stand!!! Have you noticed that the majority of SCCA members are old fogies? There is no way, we are going to attract younger participants if they keep slowing the courses down to accomodate the SCCA's ever aging, older imfebled brains...

Our Airfield and our autocrosses have been called the best in the whole nation. I have seen you at our autocrosses before and if you feel this way maybe you shouldn't come back!

Yes, I have read the letter put on the SCCA forum. Robert thought there was a problem but instead of filling a protest then. He chose to run first. He hit three cones and was pis sed off. Instead of being a man and accepting his screw up, he filed a protest that the course was too fast. Him filing a protest is a slap in the face to everyone who did well on sunday and won there class because of it.

Since you know so much about physics, can you give me a lesson? How is a bumble bee able to fly? Their wings are not big enough to lift there bodies into the air, but they do. Don't talk to me about physics until you can explain this...

I worked my butt off for four days from 7 am to 7 pm to try to make this event truely stellar. I feel all my work was for nothing now. I will never join the SCCA and will never run in another one of their events. There is so much racing and DE's here in BFE Florida that I will never feel the need to go to BFE Topeka. I thank Carpenter for marring a great event in contraversy. I am truely sorry for all the participants that did a great job on sunday, coming from behind and winning their class, just to have it taken away by ONE PERSON who did poorly on sunday.

I am done with this topic and will not post another, no matter how much I am fished-in.

THANK GOD!